S10EP5. A New Era of Collaboration in Asphalt Engineering with Jo Sias

R: We're continuing with season 10. The things we're exploring this season are the opportunities, careers, and paths that lead people into the asphalt industry. We're focusing on careers and lives that have been enriched, changed, or formed by the asphalt community.

B: Today, I'm looking forward to hearing about a career in the university setting and how research plays into the industry. We will learn how research and universities are bringing folks into our industry and teaching them about asphalt materials and infrastructure.

R: To help us with that conversation today, we've invited Jo Sias to be a part of the podcast. Jo works at the University of New Hampshire. Jo, can you tell us a little bit about yourself as we get things started?

J: Sure. Thanks, and I am happy to be here as part of the podcast. I'm a professor in the Department of Civil and Environmental Engineering at the University of New Hampshire. I've been here for almost 25 years and teach undergraduate as well as graduate courses in pavement materials and pavement design. My research is focused mostly on asphalt materials characterization in the laboratory as well as looking in the field. Over the last decade or so, I've done a lot of work in the area of impacts of climate change, resilience, and sustainability of flexible pavements and asphalt materials in general.

B: I'm always curious how people got into the industry. What led you into civil engineering and focused your research on transportation infrastructure or asphalt materials? What was that path? It seems very niche, and I'm always curious how people end up here.

JS: I can trace getting into civil engineering back to my high school physics class. We had a project where we built toothpick bridges and looked at the physics of trusses, and I learned that's what civil engineers did. I loved it. I loved my physics class, so I went into civil engineering and came to the University of New Hampshire for my undergraduate degree.

During the summer of my junior year, I had the opportunity to be part of a research experiences for undergraduates program at North Carolina State University. For that summer, I was assigned to Dr. Richard Kim. I worked in his lab and learned a lot more about asphalt materials. I realized how much I enjoyed being in the lab working with those materials and gained an appreciation for the complexity that goes into making a good mix and how we characterize those materials. Then I went back for my graduate program.

R: As you mentioned, people typically don't go into college thinking asphalt is what they want in life. But there are a lot of us who end up in this career. What has surprised you the most about the asphalt pavement industry once you started working closely with it?

JS: I think there's a range of different levels that you can dig into, from lab work where you're looking at hands-on making and breaking specimens in the lab, to learning about different types of materials and how we improve things. You can also look at fundamental theoretical modeling, understanding the physics, and expanding the knowledge of the science behind everything.

You can go from microscopic molecular dynamics of asphalt binders all the way through to how we do a better job at construction and production. There is research at all those different levels, as well as the practical angle where you're learning things, making changes, and making an impact.

B: At this point in your career, you've led and been involved in many different research projects. Is there one project that stands out to you as being influential in your career or forward-pointing for where you are going with your research? I'm curious if there's one thing that really got you hooked and that you feel is important.

JS: I think some of the work we've been doing more recently on resilience in general stands out. That is from multiple angles: resilience of the material itself, resilience of the pavement systems, and how we become more forward-thinking to anticipate what we need to deal with in the future.

We are not just reacting to what we need to do now, but pulling in components that are not just specifically materials-related, such as social equity, how we make decisions, and how we do things more efficiently from an overall environmental performance life cycle assessment standpoint.

The work we're doing now on resilience and sustainability, bringing in all those different components, is what I'm excited about. I never thought I'd be working with a social scientist in my career, and now I have been for the last decade or so. I recognize all those different components that need to come together to make our pavements last longer and work within society and the environment.

R: One of the things you've done is collaborate with NAPA and industry partners through the Road Forward sabbatical. Why is the connection between researchers and industry so important?

JS: Industry obviously benefits eventually from the research. I think researchers need to have that connection to what's practical at the moment, but then also think about how to push forward and improve what can be done in the field. That requires an understanding of how things work, and you need that relationship with industry.

You need to be able to get out and see how these materials are produced, what actually happens at the plant, what happens at the construction site, and what can go wrong. When you're sitting in a classroom or just doing testing in the lab, that's not necessarily something that crosses your mind.

Eventually, for what you're doing in research to be useful and applicable, you've got to think about who is ultimately putting that down and constructing the roadways. It's important to have that two-way conversation. What does industry need? What are they worried about, and how can we help? But then also, in terms of what we're doing to expand the state of knowledge, how can that be practically applied?

B: Another thing I'm interested in is that in your career, you've been able to work with and mentor a number of students. Are there any interesting or exciting examples of how they're applying what they've learned in their civil engineering studies and what they're doing today?

JS: It's fun watching where students end up and watching their careers grow. I've got a couple of students who are faculty members around the world. Seeing them in academic positions and building their own research programs is rewarding.

Former students also end up at agencies. For example, Dave Mensching was one of my PhD students and he's been at Federal Highway, rising into a leadership position there. There are also lots of students in various consulting companies. Katie DeCarlo at Heritage is another good example; she's becoming a leader in the industry. It's fun watching their career paths and keeping in touch with them.

R: We're doing something a little bit different this season and we're going to do a few quick-fire questions with one-sentence answers. What's one piece of technology you couldn't do your job without?

JS: A computer. I need the computing power.

B: What keeps you excited about coming back to work?

JS: The people, the students, and the people you're working with in the field.

R: If you weren't working in the asphalt industry, where would you be?

JS: That's a good one. Probably geotech. I think I'd still be in civil engineering.

B: Finish the sentence: People don't realize that working in asphalt means...

JS: Having fun every day.

R: What's the biggest infrastructure challenge people underestimate today?

JS: Funding.

R: Lab or classroom?

JS: Lab, 100%. I like getting my hands dirty.

RW: What do you enjoy the most?

JS: I enjoy the problem solving—the problem solving of something that I know eventually is going to make a difference. A lot of people take roads for granted; they don't think about them. Whatever we do to make sure people aren't thinking about the roads, that's our goal, right? So they're not thinking about a horrible ride.

Getting students to realize what their impact is is fun. It's a challenge and something where you are making a difference. Maybe not everybody recognizes it, but you know it. Then you get to work with all kinds of different people; I think that's a lot of fun, too.

R: If you could focus the industry's attention on one research priority over the next decade, what would that be?

JS: I think it would be pulling in a broader range of components, not just engineering. We need to pull in social science, the environment, sustainability in a broad sense, and resilience in a broad sense.

R: If a future student considering civil engineering was listening to this podcast, what's a piece of advice you would want them to know?

JS: There are a lot of different kinds of opportunities in civil engineering and pavement engineering, from the lab all the way to data science and policy. Lots of different skill sets are needed in the industry to continue moving it forward.

R: And don't underestimate the value of good communication skills. A lot of people go into engineering thinking they won't have to write or communicate, but actually 90% of your work is that.

JS: There's a lot of communication. Students don't always realize that communication is important in all its forms. One cool thing you're starting to see more of is education on how to communicate to a variety of audiences.

B: I want to go back to one of your answers. You talked about cross-collaboration and how you never pictured working with a social scientist. Are you seeing more of that in research or projects, and do you think technology will drive even more demand for bringing in specialists from different areas?

JS: That has been evolving more over the last decade. There is a growing recognition that we need to get away from siloing problem-solving because that isn't going to work for some problems. There isn't one person who has all the expertise needed.

To effectively think about solutions that are going to be long-term, you need different viewpoints. You need social scientists to tell us how to engage stakeholders and identify who they are. You need people who can handle big data. Civil engineers aren't typically trained to handle big data, so you need folks who can do that, along with modeling, AI tools, and machine learning.

Then you get into the policy piece. We need to change policies, and engineers aren't trained in that area. It goes two ways: we need policymakers to help us communicate, but we also need to understand what's possible and what the paths forward are.

B: You received the University of New Hampshire's Excellence in International Engagement Award. Have you gained lessons from other regions or countries that could help the US with resilience or infrastructure studies?

JS: The international component of what I've been doing has really grown over the last decade. It's a matter of expanding your horizons. Different regions have different ways of approaching challenges. Ultimately, roads are roads, but they exist in different environments and climates.

Learning different ways to approach the same problem helps you think in new ways. Bouncing ideas off of people from different cultures is great because there are wonderful people around the world. Why not take advantage of learning from whoever you can? You get more friends and more fun people to work with that way.

R: Jo, we really appreciate you spending time with us today. We appreciate your insight, and I have enjoyed the opportunities we've had working together, specifically on the topic of resilience. We wish you the best of luck in your career going forward.

JS: Thanks. It's been fun working with you guys, and I appreciate the opportunity to be part of the podcast. One of the things that's really great about our industry is that it's small compared to other disciplines.

The folks who land here are special. For the most part, everybody is engaged and passionate about it; you don't see that everywhere. It's like a big family, with all the family dynamics that go with it. That's what makes it cool and part of what makes it fun.

B: I agree with you on that. Thank you. One of the main topics I took away from today's conversation was how Joe shared the impact of collaboration on her research and how that can change your perspective to better solve problems.

R: It is interesting because when I was going through my civil engineering program in the late nineties, it was very focused on equations. But the reality is the profession is changing and expanding. We need a different set of skills in the room to help civil engineers evaluate choices and understand things more holistically. It requires us to gain new skills and bring in people from the outside, which can be challenging but is necessary to solve the bigger issues we deal with as a profession